19. Kathleen Gage On Healthy Living, Veganism, Positivity and Increasing Your Influence
On today's episode I am joined by Kathleen Gage. Kathleen is a motivational speaker, author, business consultant, podcast host and founder of Vegan Visibility. Today we discuss how physical pain and discomfort lead Kathleen to a lifestyle change and the benefits she experienced shortly after. She also opens up to us about addiction, routines that keep her feeling good, how to have a positive outlook on things even when they seem daunting and much more.
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Full Transcript-
JAMIE
Kathleen, thank you so much for coming on Jamie's Corner podcast.
KATHLEEN
Well, I am excited to be on Jamie's corner. I want to be in your corner of the world.
JAMIE
Do you? It's very chaotic.
KATHLEEN
Yeah, well, you know, so is mine. So there you go. There you go.
JAMIE
You are a busy woman and we're going to get into it. I want to know how to get more vegan visibility because that's what you're all about. I want to talk about morning routines, healthy lifestyle. We're really going to get into it all. So for those people that don't know you. Who are.
KATHLEEN
You? Oh, my gosh. It depends who you ask. You know, if you ask my close friends, they're going to give you one perception. If you ask people out in cyberspace, they'll probably give you a different perception. If you ask people from 30 years ago, they're going to tell you something completely different. And basically, I'm just a woman who's out doing my life and I happen to be vegan.
KATHLEEN
I happen to be a business owner for 28 years and love life. You know, I really do. I think about that a lot. And I work on my attitude because if I buy into what other people are doing, I get sucked in and I get real negative. And so I just stay away from that kind of stuff.
JAMIE
Oh, my God. It's amazing. You really are a motivational speaker at your core. I mean, I watch your videos. I'm like, you make me want to be a way better person.
KATHLEEN
Well, thank you. And you know what's really great, Jamie, is by doing that for me, it kind of forces me to toe the line and to really stay aligned with what I say is true. So if I say something is true on a video, in my world, it's all about walking the talk. It's not about just blowing smoke and saying, Oh, you got to do this, and then I'm not willing to do it.
KATHLEEN
It's like one thing I profess to people and I say It's a really good thing to do is be kind to people. So when I go to the grocery store, I'm kind of the clerk. When I you know, if I see somebody that's struggling to get something off the shelf, I'll help them to get something off the shelf.
KATHLEEN
And then I can look at their cart and I can judge them. So then I'm still working on that one. You know, it's like, but you know, the grocery store is a really great way to test what our beliefs are and see if we're really walking our own talk.
JAMIE
That's interesting. I never thought of that because most of the time in the grocery store aisle, I'm harassing people in the meat aisle. So I really need to work on myself.
KATHLEEN
Well, you know, that's part of your branding. So I would say because I love what you're doing, I went through and I binged, watched your all your YouTube videos and I'm like, Oh, this woman is so amazing and I just love what you're doing, but you do it in a way where you really make people think, but you also make people confront their own B.S..
KATHLEEN
And, you know, there are some people where I saw in your videos where they're looking at what's happening in factory farms and they're like, Oh, that can't possibly be true. And you're like, That's the standard. And some people walk away. Other people, they start crying, other people they're hugging you saying, I'm a vegan from this point forward. So, you know, keep doing what you're doing because we need more of you.
JAMIE
Thank you. And we need more of you, too. And what I love about our movement is we're so diverse. We have artists, we have filmmakers, we have motivational speakers, we have people that are living the healthy lifestyle and incorporating that into the vegan message. But at our core, we're vegan for the animals because we disagree with the practices and there is never, ever any sort of way that you can ethically kill someone or, you know, any anything.
KATHLEEN
It's so true. And I think what we need to remember, because I'm a baby vegan, I'm coming up on four years being a vegan. And I know people that have been vegan for 50 and 60 and one man 70 years, Mark Huberman, who is with National Health Association, he was born a vegan, raised a vegan, has he's never, ever had meat.
KATHLEEN
And I think one of the things that I've noticed is sometimes we can be very judgmental of each other and let's say a brand new vegan comes on board and they're saying the vegan diet. And it's like, okay, we we know after a period it's not a diet, it's a lifestyle. But when they're brand new to it and we say, Oh, you're so wrong for saying it's a vegan diet, it's like, well, God bless you.
KATHLEEN
You know, let's let's have a conversation. And to help them to understand and raise awareness. But when we start pointing fingers at each other and judging each other, I think that's one of the worst things that we can do.
JAMIE
Absolutely. We're so much stronger together and we need to keep our focus where it really matters, which is legislation and helping the animals. And as you were saying earlier, being kind, being a better person. If we could focus individually and stop caring what everybody else is doing, I think we we live in a better world.
KATHLEEN
Absolutely. And you know what I love about the grocery store is when somebody looks at my cart, they're going to see why I'm so healthy. At my age, I'm 68 years old. Can't believe I'm two years from 70. And I have people that actually look at my cart and they go, Do you eat all that stuff? Because there's fruits and vegetables, there's beans, legumes, all the the standard fare.
KATHLEEN
And it's a great opportunity to have a conversation with them or of somebody saying, oh, I can't reach that. I'm just, you know, my aches and pains. And it's like, really? Tell me about your aches and pains. I mean, I have these conversations with these people and they're like blown away. So I've actually written down the names of books.
KATHLEEN
I've talked about meet ups they can go to. And I actually think that I have had an impact at the grocery store.
JAMIE
Wow, that's awesome. So it's like you are just basically converting people through being a walking example.
KATHLEEN
And you know. Yeah, and it's interesting because I we were talking about this before we actually started this conversation. I'm coming up on 39 years sober and early on in sobriety. I had a sponsor who taught me that it's about attraction, not promotion, which means through your lifestyle, through how you live, that you actually have people that are engaged with that and they go, Well, how do you do that?
KATHLEEN
My 50 year high school reunion is coming up, which I can't believe that. And I'm thinking I'm probably going to be one of the healthiest people there. And there may be people asking me, how do you stay so healthy? And I can share with them what I do.
JAMIE
Well, it takes work, and you're willing to put in the work.
KATHLEEN
But again, I really want to emphasize that what you're doing the in your face stuff is so important because, you know, I've been known to get in people's faces. I'm not always that kind, but there is a rule in my house, I don't shop for meat, I just won't do it. And not everybody in my household is vegan, you know?
KATHLEEN
And so I have to respect where they're coming from and that they have actually changed through it. My mother in law lives on our property and she I cook for her quite often and she has changed a lot of her eating habits as a result of what I've taught her, and she calls it vegan. She goes, I got you some of that vegan stuff. And it's and I person is so frustrated, it's big and it's medium. And then I go, okay, that's fine. You know, I mean, why why get caught up in the way she pronounces vegan?
JAMIE
Well, I think you bring up a really good point, and it took me a long time to get there because I lived with my parents throughout college and they are not vegans. And what was happening was it was creating a very visible divide in my relationships with everybody around me. And I was coming really from the ethical stance where I don't care if you put, you know, grass in the refrigerator, I'd rather eat that than eat a dead animal.
JAMIE
And so there was milk at one point. And I would be like writing on the cartons, not your mom, not your milk. And my dad would be like, I'm going to throw you out of this house if you keep doing this. And so it wasn't helping my cause, you know what I mean? However, once I took more of a lenient approach and had him introduced to numerous of friends of mine that are vegans, that are healthy bodybuilders, he definitely attached more on to that kind of messaging and he's more further along than he's been in years.
JAMIE
So he's, I would say, 80% plant based. I wouldn't put the vegan label in there.
KATHLEEN
Well, and sometimes people don't want the vegan label. When I first started I was not vegan. You vegans are all crazy as far as I was concerned and it was September of 2018. I started because I was getting inflammation and I knew that at my age that's kind of the standard of what you can expect. At least that's what I had been told. And so I kind of resigned myself to that. But I did some research and I found that if I gave up milk or meat and dairy, that I probably would get rid of the inflammation. Now, what's interesting, Jamie, is I was rescuing the animals at that point, and my wife and I have been with my wife for 33 years. And we were the first legally married couple in Oregon. But that's kind of a side note. We have three rescue horses, we have two dogs, we have a cat. Over the years, we've had many, many, many animals. That's just what we do. And here we're rescuing. And, you know, I'm talking about how much I love the animals, but I'm such a carnivore and I had no clue what a disconnect that was in my life here. You know, out of one side of my mouth, I'm saying love. Out of the other side of my mouth. I'm saying I'm going to murder you and eat you because I'm paying for that to be done to you. And when I had that revelation, it was about six months into being plant based. I was at the grocery store walking by the meat department, going to another department, and I literally stopped in my tracks and I started crying. I was like, How could I have been so ignorant? And I think that's what it takes. It's just like when I got sober, I didn't get sober the first time I tried. I didn't get sober because somebody told me, You're a drunk. And I was I was a fall down drunk. And I got sober when I was literally brought to my knees and life wasn't working.
KATHLEEN
And I just said, I can't do this anymore. And I said, please, you know, I just screamed out to whoever was out there. I said, please help me. And I think when we reached that point, we our life dramatically changes.
JAMIE
And you have to be the one to want to change.
KATHLEEN
Absolutely.
JAMIE
No matter how much I try and force veganism down people's throats, unless they want to change that, they're not going to go vegan. And ultimately, I don't want them going vegan. For me. I want them to go vegan because they know it's the right thing to do.
KATHLEEN
Absolutely. It's like when somebody quit smoking, somebody quits drinking, somebody quits, you know, compulsive shopping. They have to get to that point where it just quits working for them. And it's the same with being vegan. It's like we can present them with the information and the facts. And you mentioned having bodybuilders that are friends that are vegan. I have several.
KATHLEEN
And I think with the information we need to meet people where they're at, if they're interested in the environment, give them the environmental issues. If they're interested in health, then Game Changers is a great movie and with a lot of men, it is about the health. It's about looking good. It's about erectile dysfunction. I mean, that's you know, there's such a correlation there with, you know, some people it is about the animals.
KATHLEEN
And it's so interesting because I was working in the pet industry pre-pandemic. I did a lot of work as a consultant and a speaker in the pet industry. And I remember the first PET conference I went to. I wasn't vegan at that point, but I just thought, This is odd here. It's a pet conference and they're serving chicken.
KATHLEEN
They're serving salmon and they're serving filet mignon. It's like, huh? And it just kind of struck me as odd and I didn't say anything because I went right along with it and ate what I ate. And years later, I looked back at that and I was like, oh, my gosh, that was a disconnect.
JAMIE
Wow. And it's so interesting you tell that story because I was just visiting a sanctuary up in New Jersey last week and I was talking to the owner. His name is Mike Skylands is a sanctuary. And he was telling me how he took one of his cows to the vet and hang it up in the vet's office was a flier and it said, let's celebrate our pets and do a fundraiser or with a steak dinner.
JAMIE
Come and join us this date. And he's like, Oh my God. Like, I'm taking my cow here to get checked out. And they're talking about serving steak dinner at a pet fundraiser.
KATHLEEN
Oh, my gosh. Oh, did he say anything?
JAMIE
Well, this is so funny. So I don't know if you're familiar with the Elwood Dog Beat campaign, but it's.
KATHLEEN
I am.
JAMIE
Okay. So for those listening that don't know what it is, it's basically a made up campaign to show the hypocrisy of the meat industry where they'll serve golden retriever flesh and they basically market it as if it's like dog B, so it'll be like, oh, like, you know, goldendoodle filet mignon, come and pick up your meat. And it really looks like a marketing ad for meat.
JAMIE
And so what they did was they hung up these fliers in the vet's office, the vet, the vets were so bad, it was like a whole scene. It was a whole thing because they thought it was real. They're like, Oh, my God. Like, what is this golden retriever, puppy meat and blah, blah, blah. And he's like, That's fake, but your flier is not fake.
KATHLEEN
Exactly. Yeah. You know, and that is justified. I love that. I, you know, and I would probably do something like that. Yeah. It's, you know, how can you say that you love and save animals and then go to pay to have them murdered and see, this is where I'm starting to get another level of awakening that when I first became plant based, it was for one reason six months into it, it's like, okay, now I'm a vegan and I got a little radical.
KATHLEEN
Well, I'd say a lot radical. And then I had to kind of step back and see that I wasn't having the kind of impact I wanted. And I think that one of the things I learned many years ago, regardless of what you're doing and if you have ad advocacy work, you have to look at what is your motive and what's the outcome that you're trying to achieve?
KATHLEEN
Because I can go back to the early eighties when AIDS was first a thing where when people were getting diagnosed with it and there was so much fear. You think the pandemic is spiritual? Oh, my gosh. Back then it was crazy. And the thing that I had to look at is I was doing fundraisers to get AIDS foundations and things of that nature.
KATHLEEN
I do look at what's the outcome that I'm trying to achieve, and there was so much discrimination and it was just crazy. There was definitely a divide. And I think now we have an even bigger divide than we've ever had. It's it's sad.
JAMIE
Oh, for sure. For sure. And so can you tell me a little bit about what got you into this lifestyle? So let's backtrack all the way. 40 years ago, your growing up, your partying, what's going on?
KATHLEEN
Well, you know, gosh, which part of the lifestyle, the sober lifestyle it was because that quit working, drinking and drugging, just quit working. And, you know, when people used to ask me, what's your drug of choice? Like, what do you have? You know, give me whatever you have. And when I was in high school, I was a senior in high school in South Tahoe, and we'd take reds, which were downers, and then to get even keeled would take speed.
KATHLEEN
So that, you know, we could at least go home and hold the conversation. And that's kind of how my life was for for many years until it just quit working. So for me, it was like I was sick and tired of being sick and tired. My life just quit working and never in my wildest dreams did I think that I would move into running my own business because at that time I was completely unemployable and then I became an overachiever.
KATHLEEN
And just one thing led to another where I did start my own business. That was 28 years ago. But as far as getting into the vegan lifestyle, it was because I was not feeling well. I'm I had a lot of inflammation and I was definitely a carnivore. I ate a lot of meat, ate a lot of dairy, that block of cheese.
KATHLEEN
I could get it today and it would be gone tonight. That's I tend to be rather compulsive in some of my behaviors. And so when I decided to quit, I tried it for seven days. I'll see if that really works and if I can get rid of the inflammation or minimize it in two days it was gone. At the end of a week I had dropped like £5 and I had given up on diets because I was a yo yo dieter quite a bit of my life.
KATHLEEN
And what was interesting is I didn't diet, but I was losing weight and I was getting healthier and healthier and healthier. And then it was six months into it when I really had that spiritual awakening of being aligned with what I was saying to be true and the path that I was traveling. So there's been different points in my life where I've hit a place where I get to look at what I say is true and am I really living that?
KATHLEEN
And I think that'll be the way it is till the day I transit to whatever comes next.
JAMIE
And I think for a lot of people, it's they have to get to that point where they have no other choice but to change.
KATHLEEN
Well, you know, it's interesting it's interesting you should say that, because I have an aunt on Karen's side of the family who is 80. She's going to be 90. And a few years ago, she had a stroke. She continued to smoke. She had a heart attack. She continued to smoke. She got lung cancer. She continued to smoke. She got breast cancer.
KATHLEEN
She continued to smoke. She's nearly 90 years old. She continues to smoke with her. Nothing will change her. Nothing. She said, This is my only pleasure in life and it's like, God bless you. If that's what you need to do, go for it. People like her I don't think will change. I have a friend who just had eye surgery today and a few years ago, he, he and I were talking about his health.
KATHLEEN
He's probably about £80 overweight and his health got progressively worse. And when I became plant based, I was sharing information with him and I said, you know what might help? And he said, well, maybe I'm too much of a Coca-Cola addict. I really don't want to give it up. I said, okay, well, then he got diabetes, diabetes to type two.
KATHLEEN
And I said, You know, if you changed your eating, it might help. And he had a threat of losing one of his speech. He was going blind and he tried it for a little while and he said, it's just too hard. And I said, Is it harder to lose your sight in your foot or is it harder to change your diet?
KATHLEEN
At that point I was like, okay, let's quit the bullshit. Let's really get into what the truth of the matter is. And he had his surgery today or yesterday, and I called him and said, How's it going? He goes, Well, it probably would have been easier if I would have changed my eating habits. And I said, Well, it's never too late.
KATHLEEN
You can do it. I mean, at that point, you know, I sent him books. I've talked to him. He has watched me progress in my health and we're not that far apart in age. And it's like, wow, I and what I learned years ago, Jamie, is that we're either a warning of what not to do or an inspiration of what to do.
JAMIE
Wow.
KATHLEEN
Much rather be an inspiration than a warning.
JAMIE
Absolutely. I mean, so this guy is faultless and I was.
KATHLEEN
Well, he's he still has the spirit, but I don't know for how long. And he had surgery on his eye. And we'll see what happens with that. But it I think sometimes we do get jaded in the vegan community. We we are so immersed into it that we think everybody's going to get it. And all we have to do is look at the rate of diabetes, the increase of obesity in children, that children now are getting, the onset of adult diseases.
KATHLEEN
And it all has to do with the foods and it has to do with the food manufacturers in this is all the kind of stuff through my podcast show and being on podcasts like yours that I want to educate people. I want to at least remove the veils and then they can decide. But there's a lot of denial and you can go to the grocery store, you can look at somebody that obviously is in a lot of pain.
KATHLEEN
The just the way they walk and they've got all this excess weight in their skin is terrible. And you look at that and you go, you don't have to live like that. But there's so much propaganda that they think that that's the only way to live.
JAMIE
I think people have this misconception that veganism is restrictive or that we don't eat foods that are delicious, which is not true at all.
KATHLEEN
No, not at all. We very delicious foods, you know. And it's so funny, Jamie, because before I actually became vegan, I didn't like to cook. I was just like, I don't like to cook. I'll just go. I'll go get my fast food, I'll go do whatever. And once I discovered all the wonderful meals that I could cook, I love to cook.
KATHLEEN
And my main ingredient, as I always tell people, is love, because they'll say, Boy, this tastes so good. And I said, Do you know what my magic ingredient is? And my mother in law always goes, It's love. I said, Yes, it is.
JAMIE
It's made with love. That's all we care about. I'm sure. I'm sure it tastes delicious. Well, we want to get into your recipes and your morning and nighttime routines, but that's going to come a little later because I want to get into vegan visibility and I want you to tell me about how you started that business and what you're doing with that business.
KATHLEEN
Okay. Well, the business started 28 years ago and it's gone through a few recreations. I started it. I left a corporate job because I just felt too restricted. I couldn't be creative and it just corporate America just wasn't really my cup of tea. I had been there for a few years and did quite well. I was the employee of the year in the Employee of the Month and on and on and on.
KATHLEEN
Kept getting promoted and raises this and all this. But I just felt restricted. So I thought, okay, I'm going to start my own business. Huge mistake for most people because I had no clue what I was doing. I just thought, well, I'll put up my shingle and people will run through the door. Didn't quite work like that, but I was fortunate enough to get a contract with a seminar company and for four years I was on the road speaking for this company.
KATHLEEN
So I got a lot of experience as a speaker by working for this company, but that business was primarily about how to market. I would work with companies. I worked with everything from state agencies, municipalities, corporate and small businesses, and then evolved to where I was working with solo entrepreneurs on how to gain visibility. But at the time it was called Street Smarts Marketing.
KATHLEEN
Then I changed it to power up for profits because I would teach people how to build a multiple six figure business, primarily solopreneur. And then the pandemic hit. And like many people, the pandemic really hit my company hard because as a keynote speaker, all of that was wiped off the face of the earth. I mean, it was like I had to one more time reinvent myself.
KATHLEEN
And I really played with the idea of do I retire? Do I go to work for a company? Do I grow my business? And for about a year I just kind of floundered around like, what do I want to do? And then about a year ago, it was a little over a year ago I decided I was going to rebrand as vegan visibility.
KATHLEEN
I was out on a run one day and get some of my best thoughts when I'm on a run. And I thought, What is the vegan industry really need? What are these small business owners really need? That is lacking? They need visibility well, they need vegan visibility. And it was like boom, boom, boom checked in, the URL was available.
KATHLEEN
And I thought, okay, it's a sign from God. It's obvious that I should start this. Well, I changed my company name and rebranded everything and decided, okay, what do I need to do to get visibility within the vegan industry? Do what I would tell my clients to do. Do a summit, write a book. Do you know something? That's kind of a big fanfare.
KATHLEEN
So I put together a summit, went to the biggest marketers I knew within the industry. Katrina Fox was the first one. She's out of Australia, went to Elizabeth Alfano, I went to Stephanie Red Cross West, I went to John Oprah. I went to all these people who have a lot of visibility. I said, Would you be a part of this summit?
KATHLEEN
And they all agreed to it. I mean, I had only one person who said no, and it was due to their time constraints. But I got ten really amazing rock stars and that immediately put my name on the map. So that's something I work with my clients on. It's like if you're an unknown, put yourself right in the heart of it, take a risk, do it really well.
KATHLEEN
And that's the main thing you have to deliver. You can't just say that this is going to be good. You really have to deliver. And so that's kind of how it all evolved.
JAMIE
Gotcha. And so, I mean, tell me a little bit about tips for people in getting visibility.
KATHLEEN
Yeah. Well, one is you should be doing something every single day and getting on podcast shows is probably one of the best things you can do. However, now there's a big however here. I'm sure that when people approach you, Jamie, you have a certain criteria that you look for. There's certain guidelines with me. Anybody who's on my show, absolutely must be 100% void of the animal and dairy.
KATHLEEN
No exceptions. You know, Oprah could call me and people have said, no, you change your mind. It's like, no, seriously, if Oprah's not 100% void of animal and dairy, I don't want her on my show. I mean, I'll go hang out with her, be happy to do that. But I'm very serious about that. And I have two shows.
KATHLEEN
One is vegan visibility. One is plant based, eating for health. And I've had people who have gotten upset with that. They said, Do you know who I am? And I said, Well, I know that you're not vegan. That's all I need to know. And so, you know, that's kind of good looking.
JAMIE
I love it so much.
KATHLEEN
I had one person who sold 600,000 books and they said, Well, I'm 95% of the way there. I said, When you're 100%, then you call me after a year of being 100%. So that really is one way is get on other people's podcast shows, start your own podcast if you know what you're doing. That's a big key right there.
KATHLEEN
Another thing is write articles, look for opportunities to write for other people's blogs, host a summit. I'm working with a client right now that we're actually launching her book with a summit and we're collaborating the two together, which is kind of exciting because we're taking it to a level that most people wouldn't have the stamina for. And that's one thing I like is I really like to play big and I really like to see how far I can take a client and I tell them before they sign a contract, you better be ready to play big and you better be ready to have sweaty palms, because if your palms aren't sweaty, you're not playing big
KATHLEEN
enough, period.
JAMIE
Oh, that's awesome. Well, one day I am going to be working with you.
KATHLEEN
Let's talk. But quite seriously, what you're doing is see, you've already branded yourself really nicely because I seriously did binge watching and I was like, Oh my God, I love this woman. I can't believe I'm going to be on her show. This is so exciting. And that's another thing. Get excited about what you do, you know, have passion in what you're doing because there's enough dullness in the world and there's enough boringness in the world to be who you are.
KATHLEEN
And I think that's where a lot of people, especially in my age group, we were taught that you have to be one way professionally and another way privately. And personally. I think, you know what? Just be who you are so that you never have to look over your shoulder. That's one thing my mom taught me. She passed away about ten years ago and she said, Always tell the truth and always be who you are because then you never have to second guess yourself.
KATHLEEN
You never have to look over your shoulder and you never have to wonder what you said.
JAMIE
Wow. And that's that's a beautiful quote. And that's something that's so important and that I'm trying to learn as I go and further into my adulthood. You know, I'm 24 and I feel like I am trying to figure out really what I want to be and what I want to do. Still, I work for a documentary film company and I absolutely love it and I just want to keep at it because we focus on animal rights.
JAMIE
So heavily. But there's still things I'm trying to discover about myself, obviously. But with the Jaymes Corner, I finally was like, I'm able to put my personality into something because I was doing all this activism where I was obviously so passionate about the message, but I wasn't myself. Like, I became this, like, militant, like mean, like, just not a happy person.
JAMIE
And that's just not who I am.
KATHLEEN
Well, you do Jaymes Corner. Great. And I encourage everybody go to YouTube, check out Jaymes Corner. I'm serious. I think it's one of the best shows that I've seen. And what I also know to be true is life has a way of guiding us to different directions and if we don't go willingly, life is going to give us some very important lessons.
KATHLEEN
15 months ago, it was time for me to make a change in my business, and I kept resisting and kept resisting. And I ended up we went to a Juneteenth event and it was the first outdoor event we went to in quite a while because of the pandemic, went there and just as we were leaving, a gust of wind came up.
KATHLEEN
One of the canopies for a vendor space was not pinned down properly. It lifted up in the air, slapped me on the back of the head. I mean, literally knocked me face down on the cement. I broke my wrist. I just reached out. My wrist instantly broke. And I'm like, Oh, yeah, it was it was crazy. I went to the hospital in an ambulance and of course, I'm doing a video on the way.
KATHLEEN
Hi. I just broke my wrist is Teflon, you know, I'm like, oh, my God. And you know, and but it was so interesting because I talked about being really true to who you are. In that moment that I was in the ambulance, I said, okay, let's get this clear. I'm in recovery. I'm a drug addict. Do not give me any narcotics.
KATHLEEN
And there was a part of me that wanted to say, oh, I should take the drugs because I just broke my wrist. And I said, I need you to know that no narcotics. And they were so wonderful about that. They were like, okay, that's cool. But anyway, that experience, it literally we had just started the summit process and I had to tell all the speakers, I can't do it right now.
KATHLEEN
I just broke my wrist and I need to kind of heal myself because I have to go through surgery. And it was interesting because I had the opportunity to really dig deep and go, What is this about? What am I, what am I resisting that I need to look at what's breaking in my life, what needs to be broken in my life, and it was through that process, I actually was able to move into what I'm doing now.
KATHLEEN
And there were people that were telling me, mistake, you don't want to go that niche in the vegan market. These were non vegans and then I had other people, non vegans who said, You're making a great choice, that's a great idea. You'll, you'll succeed. And so life will sometimes give us what we need in order to move us in the direction we need to go.
KATHLEEN
So sometimes we try to figure it out too much and the best thing to do is just let the information come in and then make decisions.
JAMIE
Absolutely. Absolutely. That's so that's a really good piece of advice. And I need to try and do that because I feel like oftentimes in my life some an event will happen and I'll catastrophize it and then I get all anxious and stressed. And you talk a lot about how the foods that we eat actually contribute to the anxiety that people feel.
JAMIE
So let's get into the health aspect. Let's get into that a little bit.
KATHLEEN
You know, thank you for bringing that up. And I really want to talk about the energy of food. And I'm not talking what energy it gives us physically, but spiritually when you think of the pain and suffering the animals go through in this, I mean, from the bottom of my heart, I feel like I could cry right now just thinking about it, that here these animals are going through all this pain and suffering the disease, the, you know, in their in cramped quarters and then they're literally murdered for our taste buds.
KATHLEEN
They get put on a plate. We make this big to do about killing a turkey that Thanksgiving and Christmas and whatever holidays. And you put that in your body, you're taking that energy on. And it's so interesting because most people don't look at it on that level. But if you look at all the violence in the world today, if you look at all the chaos, all the mental illness, I have a friend out of New York who's a psychologist, Marla Friedman, an amazing, amazing woman.
KATHLEEN
And she said there's a direct link between mental illness and the foods that people eat. And if you eat a lot of sugar, that's going to screw with your your emotions. If you eat a lot of meat, a lot of dairy, all of that energetically is messing with your psyche. And I believe that to the bottom of my heart.
KATHLEEN
So that's kind of that piece. But as far as health, oh, my gosh. I mean, you know, I'm going to be 70 in two years. There's it's like there's no stopping me. I just want to be I want to be one of those 90 year old women that people are going. Did you see what Kathleen did today? And it's like, yes, you know, so because now I feel like a baby compared to like Linda mills Worth, who runs the dog.
KATHLEEN
Amazing Woman. She's 78 years old and that woman is such a rock star. And I was at a conference with her. I had to run to keep up with this woman. She was crazy, crazy, energetic. And she's been vegan for, gosh, I think 25 or 30 years now.
JAMIE
She's not dead from a not having enough protein.
KATHLEEN
Well, she doesn't get her protein. So maybe she's going to die pretty soon. Oh, my gosh. You know, but seriously, now she's like so healthy. And you look at her picture and like a recent picture she just did. One was Chef AJ, their best friend's. And you look at her and you think this woman's got to be in her late fifties, maybe early sixties, but not 78.
JAMIE
Oh, that's amazing. I'm looking forward. I mean, listen, I'm starting I started at 19 and going on five years, I just feel feel better than ever. I mean, nothing will ever not make me vegan. Like I will be vegan until the day I die. And the fact that it is so healthy makes your skin glow, makes you feel good.
JAMIE
Does it hurt?
KATHLEEN
Well, you know what's really nice and it's good on so many levels, but what I love is that, you know, you're big. Why? And I think that's where sometimes people get kind of confused saying this is a vegan diet. And if they view it as a diet, it's going to be like every other diet they ever did. If they get into the big why of it, it's really for the animals first and foremost.
KATHLEEN
And then we strip the layers away and we say, and look what it can do for the environment. If we were to get rid of animal agriculture and factory farming and look at what we could do for our health, because honestly, when I broke my wrist and I was going through physical therapy and I had to go to get the surgery, and I looked at 99% of the people there.
KATHLEEN
It was. It was shocking. I was like, Thank God I'm not having my hip replaced because I am living an unhealthy life or my knee replaced or whatever. Thank God that I actually broke my wrist in a real like interesting way. I had to be literally knocked over the side of my head. But it's, it's yeah. When you start looking at other yeah.
KATHLEEN
It's like it's.
JAMIE
It said.
KATHLEEN
Hit me with a ten by four.
JAMIE
Who are we suing.
KATHLEEN
We, we got that, we got that. All taken care. Trust. Yeah. Yeah. It's like when you have something like that, if the producer doesn't respond to you and you give them a chance, get a good attorney. And, you know, I actually did. I never knew what to do. And it was like the the producer ghosted me. I mean, first they said, we'll take care of everything.
KATHLEEN
And they ghosted me. And I said, All I want is my out of pocket taken care of and I'll be happy. And they would not respond. Would not respond. And I thought, you know, I think you made a mistake. And so I contacted an attorney and the attorney said, you definitely have a case.
JAMIE
Yes, absolutely. Good for you. Yeah.
KATHLEEN
So and I'm not the kind of person that I even said that while I was being taken into the ambulance. I'm not the kind of person who sues. So, yes, take care of it. And it's like but don't ghost me.
JAMIE
Were playing with the wrong lady.
KATHLEEN
They did. They did.
JAMIE
So tell me a little bit about the struggles, if any, that you've experienced when going vegan. Maybe it's your relationships or food wise.
KATHLEEN
You know, I've had some incredible support. I have to say. I'm a real believer that what we believe to be true, we tend to manifest. I I'm one of those crazy people that believes in law of attraction.
JAMIE
I'm absolutely. Yeah, yeah.
KATHLEEN
And I mean, I actually meditated on top of pyramids. I had a teacher, a spiritual teacher when I was 25 who really helped me get on a good path around chakras and all that. So it's been over 40 years that I've been on this spiritual path and I went into this believing that I would be supported in this.
KATHLEEN
And I would say 99% of the time I get supported. But here's a good example how sometimes people get really pissy if somebody doesn't respond to them the way they want. We went out for Mexican food yesterday and so we get to the restaurant and it's this little town I live in, a little town in Oregon. It was a little town about seven miles away.
KATHLEEN
And we get there and the guy hasn't seen us for a while, the waiter. And he said, And what would you like? And I said, Well, I don't eat meat and I don't eat cheese. And he goes, You came to a mexican restaurant, you don't eat meat and cheese. And he was he was ribbing me and just joking with me.
KATHLEEN
And I said, no. And I said, What can you do for me? And so he was explaining what they could do. And I said, Great. Now some people would get really upset with that and say, Oh, he was making fun of me for not eating meat and cheese. And I just said, No, here's what can you do for me?
KATHLEEN
And I've actually had restaurants that have created meals for me because I say, Look, I don't eat meat and here's what you can do. If the vegan itself doesn't work, just say, I have a heart condition. They don't need to know that the heart condition is my heart breaks when you eat meat. But you know, it's like you can just say, I do have a heart condition and it's true.
KATHLEEN
It my heart breaks when I think of people eating meat. But I think for me, I really can't say that it's been difficult. And if it has, I probably have just pushed it away. I think the day that I decided for Karen I wouldn't get ice cream and she goes, Aren't you taking this vegan thing a little too far?
KATHLEEN
And I said, Nope. I said, I'm not. And she goes, okay. So it was kind of like that was our discussion and she respected it.
JAMIE
Has she made changes in her diet?
KATHLEEN
She has made probably 90% changes. Yeah. Yeah. And I you know, it's like when she's ready, she'll do it.
JAMIE
Right. That's important. Absolutely. I mean, I think that you are super positive influence and you have a super positive outlook on it. And so she.
KATHLEEN
Might have a different attitude, but that's what.
JAMIE
My partner as well honestly, he's very I think he he has definitely like made incredible changes. Like when I first started dating him, it was difficult because he was, you know, obviously just eating meat and cheese and I was vegan already. But eventually over a year I kind of gave him a year. I was like, all right, like now, you know, the information.
JAMIE
So like, are you going to go? Are you going to? And he did.
KATHLEEN
So I'm curious. Okay. Because this is something that I've not had to think about because I was already in a relationship. But you were vegan and you met somebody that you were attracted to. You started dating. Was that difficult dating a non vegan?
JAMIE
Yeah, absolutely. Absolutely. It was actually something that I hadn't had to experience yet because my ex before him was already vegan. When we started dating. And there's a level of like, I don't even know how attracted I can be to somebody if they're just guzzling down animal products in front of me. I think it's disgusting and quite frankly, like they smell worse, like it's just not a good look.
JAMIE
So in the beginning of the relationship, I set those boundaries and I said, I will not be present when there are animal products. So oftentimes I would pick the restaurants or he would just not eat those products in front of me. And over time, he slowly but surely started cutting them out. But I didn't like yell at him or force it down his throat.
JAMIE
But he saw I make films and obviously he saw my Jamie's Corner stuff. He came to vigils, to slaughterhouses. Me It's like once you see that, I mean, if you don't change from that, I don't know if you'll ever change.
KATHLEEN
Exactly. Well, you know, the thing that you said about not having him eat meat in front of you in in our home, we don't have meat. And it's like we haven't had a turkey for Thanksgiving since I went vegan or Christmas. And I usually cook the meal. And that's one thing I have to say about the people that come into my home.
KATHLEEN
They do respect that and they're willing. I even had my three grand nephews, two grand nephews and a grand niece, and from ages five on up to 12. And my niece said, it's going to be a real test. And they loved the food. I made fresh sorbet out of fresh fruit. I mean, you know, I think I cooked a spaghetti, a vegan spaghetti meal, and they're like, can we have seconds?
KATHLEEN
It's like, yes, yes.
JAMIE
And that's one way to get them is really just through food and showing them that there's absolutely no sacrifice. And I've done my boyfriend cook pretty much everything for us. Like I barely cook anything, thank God. Yeah, I know. He he absolutely is. Like, I adore him and he really has come a long way. And now he makes the most delicious vegan meals for us both.
JAMIE
He cooks. He sometimes like, will, I'll come home. He'll have like the vegan curries and all different types of cuisines. It's amazing.
KATHLEEN
Oh, that's nice. Now, let me ask you this. What has been your most difficult part about being vegan?
JAMIE
The people. And that's why I always ask every guest that I have on is for me, the most difficult part was trying to wrap my head around how the people that I loved the most haven't gone vegan yet, how they don't care. I just don't understand because for me it was like once I knew the information, I changed.
KATHLEEN
You know, I think for a lot of them, they they don't believe it because they've been so brainwashed. I mean, if you I actually did an article on the number of advertisements on TV that have to do with food products that are from fast food and then right after that from the big pharma. And when you look at it, big farmers in bed with the food manufacturers in bed with health care, and it's profitable, they say, to keep us sick.
KATHLEEN
But the reality is it's really profitable for us to be healthy because we work, we buy workout clothing, we buy gym equipment, we buy extreme vacations. And so I think part of it is having a shift in perception, but also realizing that it's so ingrained in our culture. And if you look at the history of it, a lot of this started happening around the fifties when women went into the workforce and they started with TV dinners and that led into convenience.
KATHLEEN
And then that I remember the first McDonald's. I mean, this tells you how old I am in San Jose, California. It was like it was a big treat for us to go to McDonald's. We would do it like once a month. And that was a big outing because my dad was he he for a savings and loan, but he he did well for what he was given in life.
KATHLEEN
And, and we just grew up on meat and potatoes. That was it. So there's a lot of conditioning that it's hard to change that much brainwashing. And people don't want to admit that they've been brainwashed.
JAMIE
Oh, for sure. They don't even know it because that you're seeing every single advertisement on TV is double cheeseburgers, cheese in your pizza crust, you know, double bacon, egg and cheese, whatever it is, it's ridiculous. So they they see these advertisers. They also go into the grocery store and see happy cow. They see, you know, free range eggs, which they don't actually know what that means.
JAMIE
But free range just basically means that there's a freakin door on the shed. Yeah, there's a window. We don't. It's not regulated. Nobody really knows. And I've visited these places because I wanted to see what it was like. And even cage free is it's horrible. They're just shoved thousands and thousands of birds shoved in a shed in the dark and ammonia ridden.
JAMIE
It's awful.
KATHLEEN
And yeah. And, and you have to think of the people that work there too, how, how emotional that has to be for them. So they shut down. So there's a lot of things in life that have forced us to shut down our emotions and really just live life by rote and a lot of people don't even know who they are.
KATHLEEN
They don't know what their real emotions are. If they were given the opportunity to just live freely, they they probably wouldn't even know what to do right?
JAMIE
Oh, absolutely. So why don't you tell us a little bit about how you keep yourself in such great shape, how you stay positive? I want to go through your routines. Start with the morning and with the night. Like, give us all the deets.
KATHLEEN
Okay. Well, I I'm an early to bed kind of person and which allows me to get up early in the morning. I get up anywhere from 4 to 5 a.m. this morning. I think I was up at 430 and I usually start my day with yoga. I'll just pop on a YouTube video and Jen Hillman is one of my favorites and Adrian is another one of my favorites.
KATHLEEN
So for about a half hour, I do some yoga. And then I just recently started a program. It's called Automatic Writing. And Michael Sandler is the one who's kind of the facilitator of this. And basically you just go into a subconscious state. You just write and write and write. You don't even think about what you're writing, and that just allows me to get my thoughts out.
KATHLEEN
Then I enjoy reading something positive or an inspirational spiritual book, and then what I do is I like to go on a morning run. I live in a beautiful area in Oregon, so I can run in my own neighborhood near the river. When I want to take my dog with me, I go to another really nice park and we go for a few miles.
KATHLEEN
And you know, it's not that I always feel like doing it. There's some mornings I just don't feel like getting out and running. But I also know that I have a choice. In every minute that I'm alive, I have a choice. And the choice that I make today will impact what I do tomorrow, the next day and the next.
KATHLEEN
And I really think that the having gone through what I went through when I was drinking and drugging and, you know, that literally I would come to I mean, it wasn't like I'd wake up, I would come to and I'd start drinking again. And I ended up on the streets at one point. And when you go through that kind of experience in life and you have like I have a beautiful it's not like a big mansion or anything.
KATHLEEN
I have a beautiful home, it's a little farmhouse and I call it my beautiful home. We have five acres, we have horses, we have some chickens that are rescue chickens. We have our dogs and the cat. And it's it's kind of like it just, you know, I look at sometimes and I just look go, I'm so blessed. And so a lot of it is the practices that I've been taught over the years, because it's really easy to get sucked into a negative attitude and it's just as easy and simple to go into a positive.
KATHLEEN
And so it's the moment by moment choices I make. And so I'm very conscious of the behaviors that I have. It's just like being in a relationship. You make choices around a relationship. Whatever the rules are for your relationship, it's between you and your your partner. And based on those rules, do you honor those rules? It's like going somewhere and you see somebody drop $100 bill in that moment, you have a choice.
KATHLEEN
Do I take the hundred dollar bill and say, obviously it was meant for me? Or do I say, excuse me, you just dropped $100 and in doing that, you're going to be blessed even so, that's my belief. It doesn't mean other people have to believe it, but it works for me.
JAMIE
I absolutely believe that. I mean, karma. And as you were saying, law of Attraction, whatever energy, you put out, you get back. And I truly believe that. I think also by writing out your thoughts, manifesting, putting that energy out into the universe, like whatever source God you believe in, hears that and does return it to you. And by, I think going vegan, that's the bare minimum that you could do, you know, just not consume murdered, tortured animal flesh.
JAMIE
And, you know, from the.
KATHLEEN
Way you get that in there, because it's so true. It's so true. I mean, you're constantly doing your advocacy work. And I just after that, it's like and, you know, it's it's interesting because I feel that young women your age look at you and they go, how does she how is her skin so, so beautiful? And how is she such a beautiful spirit?
KATHLEEN
And they're like, What do you do? And then you tell them they're they have a choice. They're either going to do it or they're not going to do it.
JAMIE
I just tell them I don't eat dead, tortured animals. And you know what? And it's so funny you do say that. I do advocate literally. I go, I mean, I'll be in an Uber. I'll be like, Sir, what's your name and what did you eat for dinner? I I'm not like, get into it. You know what I mean?
JAMIE
And so I do. I mean, we do. I'll have like I'll stay in the car longer just to discuss with this person. Okay. This is what happens in the food industry, darling.
KATHLEEN
Absolutely. And see, for me, what I do is like when I go to the grocery store and the clerk might say, oh, the pineapples now are so fresh and so tasteful. And I said, Yeah, I said, I love just getting all the fruits and vegetables. I said, I'm just one of those crazy vegans. I'll kind of do it as a throwaway, and if they giggle, then I'll say, You know, I actually am, I said, and I have to tell you, I love it.
KATHLEEN
And then that engages the conversation. And and it's amazing how many of the clerks will say, I just am so tired all the time. I just don't feel good. And I said, Try it for seven days. I said, try, you know, just give up on meat dairy for seven days, all sugar you know, I said here's a great book and I write down Eat to Live by Dr. Joel Furman, you know, so it's giving people tools because it's kind of like when I first got sober and I remember asking my my sponsor, I said, How does somebody get a stay sober for ten years?
KATHLEEN
And I mean, that sounds like kind of a just a dumb question that, you know, you just don't drink for ten years. And she looked at me and she goes here, do you want to really know the secret? And I said, Yeah, I do. She said, You don't drink one day at a time. For ten years you'll have ten years.
KATHLEEN
And I'm like, Oh no. I mean, I, I just didn't get it. And then after ten years, I was like, Oh, I, now that's how you do it. And then 20 years and then 30 years, you know? So it's the same with being vegan.
JAMIE
Exactly. And when you keep the animals in mind, it's the easiest thing you'll do. I don't even see it as food animals. Are not food.
KATHLEEN
Absolutely. You are so correct. You're so correct. I actually got this thought through my automatic writing. I need to start doing T-shirts and and going to people that I know and just saying, like, okay, give me a slogan. And animals are not food. Okay, there's one. And then just put it on a shirt, sell the shirt and Baraboo and Baraboo.
JAMIE
I try to I need to do more writing like that because ideas really do come to you and they really do flow from just from your subconscious and you just get it out on paper and it makes me just like feel better, more relieved. Like my therapist tells me all the time. She's like, do some writing, do some journaling, meditate.
JAMIE
It really helps. I'm like, okay, I will.
KATHLEEN
Check out Michael Sandler quite seriously and I'll make sure you get the information. I mean, his automatic writing course is really good. It's really, really good.
JAMIE
Is it like a morning pages kind of thing?
KATHLEEN
You're talking the artist way, Julia Cameron, have you ever done that one? Okay. It's it's sort of like that. It's sort of like that. And he has a 31 day process and basically you have like seven or eight prompts of like family wealth, financial wealth, spiritual wealth, health, wealth. And you go through each day and you write about those things.
KATHLEEN
And what's most interesting is you don't even think about what you're writing later in the day, you read what you wrote, you will be amazed. Like, I've things come up and I'm like, I wrote that. Wow. And like, I'm supposed to meet a woman named Clare. I have no idea who Clare is. I have no. But Clare going to have an impact on my life.
KATHLEEN
So Clare, if you're out there, contact me. I want to talk to you. But seriously, it came up in my writing. You will meet Clare and Clare is going to have a big impact on your life.
JAMIE
You wrote this down.
KATHLEEN
I wrote that down and later that day I was reading it. It's like I do not remember writing that down. And that's the idea of automatic writing. It's kind of letting the spirit guide you and you know, whether it's God or universe, whatever you believe in, the angels.
JAMIE
Wow, that's super cool. So it'll kind of walk me through a course on how to do it, because sometimes I feel like even with meditating, I sit down and I'm like, Am I doing this right? Like, What the hell am I doing?
KATHLEEN
It'll walk you through it. And with meditation, I think that's the biggest challenge for people. Just like going vegan, it's like, am I doing it right? And with meditation it can be something as simple as breathing for 5 minutes. And you just and don't worry if thoughts come up. But he goes through all that and it's a remarkable course.
KATHLEEN
But, you know, the whole thing was spiritual. I really think that one of the most spiritual things I've ever done in my life and I truly have meditated on pyramids in Egypt and in Mexico and I would say the most spiritual thing I did besides giving up drinking was that I went vegan because now I feel just a whole different connection to the earth, to the animals, to what my life purpose is.
KATHLEEN
And if somebody is out there listening right now and you are wondering, what is my life purpose? And you're not vegan, I would invite you for 30 days. Just make an honest effort of giving up meat and dairy, really give it all up. And for that 30 days, bless the food as you eat it. That's another practice I learned.
KATHLEEN
As you're eating food, you bless the food and you bless it for what it will do for your body, your spirit, your mind, and your ability to do what you're here to do.
JAMIE
Let that food be thy medicine and I medicine be that food.
KATHLEEN
Absolutely.
JAMIE
It's so true. And so what? Just while we begin to wrap things up, I am very curious about what is an ideal breakfast meal for you and lunch and dinner.
KATHLEEN
Well, you know, I love this is really bizarre. I wrote something the other day on Facebook that I was eating a huge salad for breakfast. It was about 10:00 in the morning. And I just put all these beans and legumes and onions in. I put bell peppers in it, and I make my own vegan Caesar salad dressing mix.
KATHLEEN
And I mixed it all up. And I love to cook tofu and I make it into little blocks and bake it and throw some tofu in there. And that was my breakfast. And I was like, This is so good. And oftentimes I won't eat till about 11 or 12 because I'm just not hungry. But for lunch today I had a huge old salad and then I had some tofu.
KATHLEEN
I just had a little ding of a baked it up and I would eat it throughout the day, you know. So it's usually around the fruits, in the vegetables, like tonight my dessert is going to be my sorbet. I got a sorbet maker, a ninja sorbet maker. It's called a ninja creamy. And it's amazing because I put in fresh strawberries, fresh pineapple.
KATHLEEN
I put a little monk fruit in there, I put a little almond milk. I whip it up in a blender, put it in the little cups. I let it freeze for 24 hours, blend it up, and I've got my dessert. And it is the best. It is the.
JAMIE
Best. Yes I need to try that because I think I could definitely be more healthy. Like I would say, I'm definitely an Oreo potato chips kind of girl. Unfortunately. But I do try to, you know, have more salads and greens.
KATHLEEN
Well, I like the the whole premise of the National Health Association. They've been around since 1948 and they've got the likes of Colin Campbell, Dr. Furman, all the big, big, old, old white men that started this movement and they are plant exclusive is how they define it. Plant exclusive. So that pretty much gives you leeway that if your plant exclusive, it's anything healthy and that's no meat, no dairy.
JAMIE
Yeah. And when you're cooking for yourself at home, you really know what's going into things. Like sometimes I go out to restaurants I'm like, this is so oily, I can't even eat it or This is so salty. You really start to taste that now because at this point, going vegan, I've now learned to just love the taste of fruits.
JAMIE
Love the taste of vegetables. Right? Your taste buds change.
KATHLEEN
Brought up a big thing. Yeah, you just said it. That's it. Your taste buds change because there's people that say, Well, I don't like vegetables. It's like, well, give yourself a chance to heal, first of all. But I think the big thing that we've talked about is that whole blessing of the food and to know what's going into your food.
KATHLEEN
And we we had a veggie garden this year and we had tomatoes that were, oh, my gosh, nothing like what you get at the store. The store can't hold a candle to it. And I could I want to do a video comparing the two and showing the color of a store bought one and then the color out of our garden.
KATHLEEN
It literally just oozes of this beautiful red juice that, oh, sweetest can be.
JAMIE
Wow. Yeah. I really need to try growing my own vegetables. I've heard that it's, like, unreal that that's even if. Even if you go outside of the US, it's way better.
KATHLEEN
It you know, it is. There's a lot in the U.S. right now that I would say we're not the leaders of the pack anymore. We like to think we are, but we really aren't. And and that's why it's so important for people to take control of their own health, because if you rely on our health care system, you're going to be in a world of hurt.
KATHLEEN
I mean, it's like, here's a prescription drug, here's a prescription drug. And when I went through this whole thing with my wrist, they every doctor and nurse that I met, they had to take this little survey. What medications are you on? I said, I'm not your know. You must be on something. I said, No, I'm actually not. I said, I'm on fruits and vegetables and so that would lead into it.
KATHLEEN
And I said, Here's what I want you to put on my chart. She is one amazing woman and she's big and and I would sit there and wait until they wrote it down. I said, I'm serious, write it down. And so that's in my chart. I'm an amazing woman. So.
JAMIE
Oh, you are. You absolutely are. So where can everybody find you? And if there was any last minute thoughts that you wanted to leave us with, please share.
KATHLEEN
Okay. Well, first of all, Jamie, thank you. Thank you. Thank you. I just adore you and I love what you're doing. And I'm so glad we're we're spending this time together and people can go to vegan visibility dot com vegan visibility dot com. You'll find all my socials there, you'll find my two podcast shows my blog. But what I want to leave people with is to realize that it doesn't matter how long.
KATHLEEN
You're here, it matters the quality of your life. And no matter how much pain you're in right now, whether it's emotional, physical, spiritual, you can turn that around and you can turn it around by the moment by moment decisions you make. And it's really about loving yourself first before you can love the animals, before you can love other people.
KATHLEEN
If you love yourself enough not to put any animal products in your body, your life will change in ways that you can't even begin to imagine. Jamie, thank you so much for inviting me to be on your show.
JAMIE
You're the best. I love you. I mean, I can't not say you're just incredible. So, guys, you know where to find Kathleen. I am also at J-Lo.KURTZ This is it's Jamie's Corner. And thank you so much for listening. Bye.